Posted On: Thursday - June 29th 2023 2:31PM MST
In Topics: Political Correctness The Future Science Muh Generation
I was very surprised to learn recently that the title of the well-known Jules Verne novel 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was bogus. I only recently looked it up, to find out that the Olde English unit unit of length - the "league" - was 3 nautical miles for sea purposes (and 3 statute on land). That'd put the location of the story in the novel way out in space on the other side. I guess it just sounded cool. The now destroyed (and being recovered) Titan deep-water submersible was down at just about 2 nautical miles. (1 nm ≈ 6,000 ft., 6,076 to be more precise.) The pressure down there is 5,350 psi.
Because water is nearly incompressible, pressure varies almost linearly with depth, very unlike the pressure variation within the atmosphere, made of gases, for example. The factor is about one atmosphere (~14.7 psi)* for every 33 ft down. So that was easy. That's a LOT of pressure. Diving down to 400 ft is a big deal and must be done carefully, so 2 leagues under the sea is an not anything like a proper environment for a human being.
The Titan story is interesting infotainment, and there a few aspects being discussed. Regarding one of them, I have no problem with whatever toys any grown-up boys want to play with next. Dangerous or not, it's always great for the world to have guys out there exploring and learning new things. Too bad, per Dieter Kief, this project used some of that "CARES Act" money. I don't like that aspect, no siree.
When it comes to the political aspect of the story of the failure of the Titan deep sub, I don't know any more than anyone else. I refer the reader to Race Realist blogger Paul Kersey. The excerpts from the Lyin' Press (usually) are normally the bulk of his posts, and he adds commentary and sometimes a few extra details on stories that hit close to home. That's the case again in CEO of Doomed Submarine Going to Titanic Didn't Want to Hire '50-Year-Old White Guys' Because They're Not 'Inspirational', as it appears on The Unz Review.**
Peak Stupidity has noted a something in our many posts on the Big Biz world. The HR ladies** and the big cheeses are, if not the very founders of it, big proponents of the anti-White-man D.I.E. program***. The designers/builders of the Titan worked within a medium/small sized company called OceanGate. The outfit has (or had, to be both accurate and maybe a bit morbid) 47 employees, a very convenient number when it comes to keeping out from under the massive Feral Gov't regulatory beast****. Lots of regs start applying at the 50 employee level.
The founder of OceanGate (in '09), Stockton Rush, was one of the 5 explorers on board. (Yeah, it was an all male thing. Did anyone have any problem with that?) The D.I.E./Woke aspect here is the attitude of this 61 y/o White man, as he mouthed the usual diversity platitudes. I believe that was nothing more than a corporate jargon reflex. These people love the corporate "24/7", "Core Competencies", "bandwidth", and "low hanging fruit" jargon.***** The diversity platitudes are expected, though, when taken seriously, they can mean trouble. Was that the case with the Titan?
The Titan was basically a cylindrical pressure vessel. For the life of me, I find searching for simple stuff like the P.V. dimensions harder and harder, but I got the wall thickness of 5" and am guessing from "height" of 9' that the P.V. diameter was something like 6', scaling from the pictures. This makes it a "thick-walled" pressure vessel, defined by engineers as one with a thickness < 1/10 of the radius. (Well, which radius, inside or outside? If that difference is significant to you, then, guess what, it's not a thin-walled pressure vessel. Haha!)
Now, this is engineering. Engineers make approximations to make things easier. This was especially important before fast ubiquitous computers, and we'll get more into that, but even now, as the idea is to keep the theory under control, i.e. theory that has already been worked out accurately. The difference between what's defined as thin-walled vs. thick-walled is in the former, the stresses within the material don't vary much across the radial dimension, so can be considered constant. (For the other 2 dimensions, the axial, and the tangential - using polar coordinates, of course - there is nothing to make them vary in either type P.V. so long as it's a cylinder, or sphere for that matter.) Why the dividing line right at 1:10? That's close enough for engineers to a situation in which that stress is fairly constant and easy to calculate.
The barely calculus-based derivation of the longitudinal stress in a thin-walled P.V. come from a force balance between this constant stress acting on a cross-section of wall and the pressure as applied to the area on the end caps. (No, the shape of the ends doesn't matter at all for this.) Take a slice perpendicular to the z-axis (length) and you get σ A x-section= P Ainternal. That's σ 2π r t = P πr2, which simplifies nicely to σ = Pr/2t.
For the tangential stress we do something similar. Take a cross section the long way. The forces acting from the stress on the 2 areas, one on top and one on the bottom, therefore, 2 L t, must equal the force from the pressure acting on that x-sections area, but only the projection of that area (note that if we're summing forces horizontally, pressure forces near the top, for example, would have very small components in the direction we are summing.) Don't worry, it all works out! A diagram would be extremely helpful, but I can't do that right now. So, σ 2 L t = P L D, or σ = Pr/t. That's often called the "hoop stress" and it's double the longitudinal stress.
Those stresses combine to get a value that can be compared to the inherent strength of the material. Again, the Titan was NOT a thin-walled PV, but to just get an idea of the magnitude, the shear stress that would result from those 2 normal stresses (in the thin-walled P.V. theory) would end up equal to the larger of those 2 - please don't ask - I LUV LUV LUV Mohr's Circle, but I'm tryin' to finish a blog post here, y'all, and I'm not getting paid. There's no way to pay me, if you tried. Anyway, that max. shear stress would be in the range of 40 ksi. (That's ksi, a bastard of a unit, meaning kilo pounds/square inch.) 40 ksi is up there with the yield strength of some regular materials, but not near that of specialized aerospace stuff. The Titan was made with carbon fibers within an epoxy matrix of material.
Why'd I do all the calculations? Admittedly, that was partly for fun, is the answer, but also to give the idea that this was serious business. Let's do more thinking. For a thin-walled P.V., the simple theory to get stresses was based on INTERNAL pressure, but with the signs reversed, we get the same numbers with compressive stresses resulting. As you've probably read regarding this Titan deal, and may know elsewhere regarding concrete, some materials have different strengths under compressive stresses vs under tensile ones. How well was this all known for this complicated non-isotropic material (different strengths in different directions of stress)?
Compressive loading has a failure mode that is not a factor with tension. That would be buckling or crippling. To start off simply, let's discuss briefly 2-D, with buckling in columns. It's basically 2 2-D problems, unless the thing is axisymmetric, aka, a round column. The difference in this mode of failure is that the inherent strength of the material is not a factor, but the geometry and the stiffness (the x-sectional shape and the material's "modulus of elasticity" - a material property, the latter being one number for an isotropic material but NOT for these composites) are.
This is easy to envision. You've got a 1" diameter piece of steel/iron plumbing pipe. You weld 2 1' square pieces to each end, one for the floor and one to stand on. Make it a one foot length of pipe. Unless is this some cheap 1 mm wall, China-made crap (see 2 paragraphs down), well, it'll hold you. Say, you're 200 lb, and let's say it's only 1/16" wall. We get a x-sectional area of 2πr t, so, for simple axial loading, σ = F/A = 200 lb/(0.062in)2π(0.5in) = 1000 psi = 1.0 ksi = peanuts.
Now, do the same with a 100 foot length. (Call the PS accounting office to ask about hazard pay, first. It's hard to collect later.) What's gonna happen? Buckling, that's what. The stress in the material is the same, as length doesn't appear in that calculation we just did. No, but this failure mode is one of instability. The slightest off-center application of the force - your ass 100' up there! - results in a bending loading that results in more deflection, resulting in more bending loading, in an unstable fashion. Now, you're back on the ground, perhaps injured, but consider yourself better off than Stockton Rush is.
With a hollow cylinder, we have a 3-D and much more complicated mode of failure due to instability called crippling. Envisioning this is easy too. Stand on an empty Coke can sometime. Then get a friend - or if you're pretty agile, you can do it yourself - to lightly kick the side of said can. There you go, down to Earth, and little Greta thanks you for recycling ahead of time. This already difficult theory, the crippling mode, is made all made more complicated when it's done on this composite material. BTW, that Coke can is a seriously-thin walled P.V. Thickness is about 4 thousandths of an inch. With a diameter of 2.6", that's a t/r of 0.003.
Now, finally, regarding the engineering work that must have been done, you've likely read about the fatigue effect too. Yet again, for simple homogenous, isotropic metals, work in this field has been done for most of a century******. It's not just pressure vessels such as airplane hulls that undergo fatigue. Think of any rotating part. The simplest would be motor shaft with a pulley with a belt around it. The tensions on both sides of the belt go in roughly one direction, causing stress in the round shaft. So? Yeah, but this loading direction is fixed in space while the shaft rotates. The stresses are applied back and forth (up and down in value) every rotation. At 1,800 rpm, you get a lot of cycles in a hurry! Then, for these metals, the empirical data used is made for numbers like millions to billions of cycles. Airplane hulls must be light, hence they get made to withstand cycles in the range of 10's or 100's of thousands.
What about that sub? I don't know. It wasn't going to undergo thousands of cycles, but again, things get more complicated with new materials. (Also, compressive loading on a thick-walled P.V. is different from that in the composite lay-up aircraft hulls which are thin-walled and undergo internal pressure.)
Now, your PS blogger here is not going on and on with this engineering talk just for his health. Then too, I don't claim to know enough to make any comment on the failure of the engineering work either. (I guess, with the sub having been pulled up, OceanGate and we will find out at some point.) I do have a point though. This goes back to the comment on the 50-y/o White men and the disparagement of the hiring of them. Did Affirmative-Action-Adjacent engineering have something to do with this? It's likely not, because, as I wrote above, all that talk was just a reflexive platitude out of Stockton Rush. I think the problem is not about the engineering not being done by 50 y/o White men in the future, but about it not being done the 50 y/o White of today, in the future.
Let me explain. It's not just about the age and race, but about the times. It's about there being more and more reliance on software tools than on very basic deep understanding, by engineers. Yes, one could call this part of the decline in competence that has been one of our themes lately.
OK, just to go back into it a tad, when the math in the theory gets unsolvable in closed form, then we resort to software, since we can now. That's not a bad thing. Finite Element (and Finite Difference) analysis for stress/strain and for heat transfer has been around for half a century. Yet, many problems were too big, and engineers had to make proper assumptions, find empirical methods, and/or get more into the theory. Engineers had to be creative. I mean, the only other way to run a big model was to get more of those Hidden Figures gals to do billions of calculations, yeah, just get 'em, by the 100's of thousands, working there in the nursing home. What's a couple of hundred tonnes of creamed corn in comparison to a new Cray mainframe?
OK, anyway, the computers are so fast now, that, other than in the fields of turbulent gas dynamics and such, there is confidence that anything that can be properly set up as a model can be analyzed, with accurate results. Is there too much confidence, and are the underlying assumptions that the software is written around different sometimes? Was that the case with the new material used in the Titan?
Under the Global Climate Stupidity topic key, Peak Stupidity discussed 6 years ago the problems with the reliance on mathematical models of the entire climate of the Earth. We don't have a problem with the effort to do this. We just have a problem with those who have this false confidence that this complicated of a task (with still unknown processes involved and complicated interactions) has resulted in anything like an accurate working model.
This overconfidence in "the software" is more of a problem with the younger generations. They don't want to look at the calculus and the experimental results graphs. Instead, they want to get as many pieces of software as possible and plug lots of shit in. I think this overconfidence and over-reliance is a likely cause of the Titan disaster.
What that means is we need not only 50 y/o and older White men doing this serious work, but we need the 50 y/o White men of today, who got their engineering/tech knowledge 30 years back. 50 y/o White men doing this 10 or 20 years from now may not cut it. Going woke in addition? Well that'll just bring things to a point where they'll have to send convicts down in the subs, as nobody will want a part of that. That's if anyone would know how to do a project like this in what's left of America in 2050.
* Sorry to the Euros and, well everyone non-middle-aged and older American, but we'll stick to English units in this post.
** I see that Mr. Kersey has been keeping his titles shorter lately. Yes, this one IS shorter. ;-}
*** OK, here we go ... HR is the scourge of the Big Biz world!: Part 1 - - Part 2 and Part 3.
**** The Big Gov readers here, and you know who you are (the one guy?) may see that as having been a factor in the disaster in the deep. Nah, we're talking government. Would anyone in Woke/AA Government know more than these guys?
***** Yeah, it's been so long, I had to look a couple up. Once and former cube dwellers may enjoy this page on a site called Wavelength.
****** In fact, one big impetus for fatigue analysis and crack growth study was the demise of a few of the de Havilland Comets, the first operational commercial jetliners (by 6 years), that were mentioned briefly in our recent post 1st World Memories of Suid Afrikaanse Lugdiens (CtDC - Part 7). Cracks started at square window corners (normal windows were square, so...) and the repeated pressurization cycles caused crack growth - it's called "metal fatigue". There was more to the demise of that airliner than that - there were also some hard landing due to the differences in operating a new type of airplane like this.
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[UPDATED 2 hrs. later:] Per Dieter Kief, this project did use some taxpayer money. Fixed.
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[UPDATED 06/30:] Geeze! Math error right in the title! I was thinking 1 league = 1 nm when I first did this. That was the easy part.
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[UPDATED 06/30:] Not "titanium matrix" around the carbon fibers but epoxy, as is the norm. I had a hard time imagining a metal matrix, but I figured I haven't kept up, and I shouldn't get ANYTHING off non-technical articles. (Fixed after watching the "Sub Brief" guy in the video provided by commenter Adam Smith.) What were made of titanium were the 2 end fittings. They were epoxied on to the standard carbon fiber wrap.
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Comments:
Moderator
Monday - July 3rd 2023 7:44PM MST
PS: "One thing I do not understand is if a tubular structure like a sub is under large tension in any manner. Does the pressure because of the length along the tube add up to a higher pressure than the ends, thus causing tension forces along the tube??? If not, no tension, at any high level, then concrete would be perfect."
There would be tensile stresses in the longitudinal direction if the pressure were higher on the inside, but compressive ones otherwise - for the thin-walled P.V, they are 1/2 the "hoop" or tangential stresses (Pr/2t vs. Pr/t) but it's constant along the length.* For a thick-walled PV, first of all, I gotta say that I remember it being less of a closed-form solution, but that "Engineering Toolbox" site had the formulae for the 3 components of stress as derived.**
Go here for the formulas:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stress-thick-walled-tube-d_949.html
But there is also a nice handy calculator. Try 0 inside pressure (sure it's 14,7 (psi), but that's negligible - doesn't hurt to put it in), 5300 (psi) outside (don't put a comma in - couldn't figure out why it wasn't working right for 5 minutes!), 36 (in) for inside radius and 41 (in) for outside radius. I am NOT sure of the inside radius of the thing, but it's important to make the wall thickness 5 inches, as it was.
Now plug in numbers from 36 to 41 for the "radius to point in wall", as remember, the stresses vary in a radial direction for thick-walled PVs. (no reason for them to vary in the other 2 directions unless there's some additional loading (say, bending under an impact).
OK, I gotta go, Sam. I was working on a blog post about the Steve Sailer speech, but I was not gonna get that done tonight anyway. I'm glad to write to you to explain some of this - only what I know. I always wanted to pretend I'm a submarine architect. [/George Castanza]
* There are effects near the ends, but let's not get into that.
** It's really important to know ALL the assumptions that go into the derivations.
There would be tensile stresses in the longitudinal direction if the pressure were higher on the inside, but compressive ones otherwise - for the thin-walled P.V, they are 1/2 the "hoop" or tangential stresses (Pr/2t vs. Pr/t) but it's constant along the length.* For a thick-walled PV, first of all, I gotta say that I remember it being less of a closed-form solution, but that "Engineering Toolbox" site had the formulae for the 3 components of stress as derived.**
Go here for the formulas:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stress-thick-walled-tube-d_949.html
But there is also a nice handy calculator. Try 0 inside pressure (sure it's 14,7 (psi), but that's negligible - doesn't hurt to put it in), 5300 (psi) outside (don't put a comma in - couldn't figure out why it wasn't working right for 5 minutes!), 36 (in) for inside radius and 41 (in) for outside radius. I am NOT sure of the inside radius of the thing, but it's important to make the wall thickness 5 inches, as it was.
Now plug in numbers from 36 to 41 for the "radius to point in wall", as remember, the stresses vary in a radial direction for thick-walled PVs. (no reason for them to vary in the other 2 directions unless there's some additional loading (say, bending under an impact).
OK, I gotta go, Sam. I was working on a blog post about the Steve Sailer speech, but I was not gonna get that done tonight anyway. I'm glad to write to you to explain some of this - only what I know. I always wanted to pretend I'm a submarine architect. [/George Castanza]
* There are effects near the ends, but let's not get into that.
** It's really important to know ALL the assumptions that go into the derivations.
Moderator
Monday - July 3rd 2023 7:26PM MST
PS: Sam J, I apologize for not replying here. I did read your comments, and you bring up interesting stuff - there's a lot of the field of, I guess you'd call it, sub-marine architecture. (For ships it's "naval architecture")
As for materials, such as these super bricks, under different loadings, there's quite a lot to the determination of stresses. The only time it's simple is during uni-axial loading, such as in a simple tension or compression member. That's what the tension tests for material properties are - keeps the stress simple so that a determination of the material's strength can be made.
For more complicated loadings, even if a portion of material is under compression and no tension in any direction, the stresses on different planes can be shear. The brittle materials, like brick, fail due to their "normal" stresses - those "in" and "out" from an imagined element inside. Ductile materials fail in shear, meaning the stresses that one can think of as acting along the surfaces of an imagined tiny element.
The brittle materials, such as concrete, are, kind of by definition, weak when it comes to impact loading too. (Perhaps, so was the carbon/epoxy, but I don't know.). Well, there's just a lot to it.
As for the ideas on subs, about the only thing I could say is I would not want anything controlled by radio only that's outside the hull. The military subs likely don't have too many appendages (the stuff you'd mount outside rather than inside) because the feel the need for speed. Drag is a drag. (heh!) The viscosity of water at 0C is ~ 100 times that of air. Of course, for the Titan experimental sub, no, I don't see any need for speed.
Everything outside the hull would have to take that 5-6 ksi pressure too. Then, the fan-like thrusters have to be there, so that was obviously doable.
As for materials, such as these super bricks, under different loadings, there's quite a lot to the determination of stresses. The only time it's simple is during uni-axial loading, such as in a simple tension or compression member. That's what the tension tests for material properties are - keeps the stress simple so that a determination of the material's strength can be made.
For more complicated loadings, even if a portion of material is under compression and no tension in any direction, the stresses on different planes can be shear. The brittle materials, like brick, fail due to their "normal" stresses - those "in" and "out" from an imagined element inside. Ductile materials fail in shear, meaning the stresses that one can think of as acting along the surfaces of an imagined tiny element.
The brittle materials, such as concrete, are, kind of by definition, weak when it comes to impact loading too. (Perhaps, so was the carbon/epoxy, but I don't know.). Well, there's just a lot to it.
As for the ideas on subs, about the only thing I could say is I would not want anything controlled by radio only that's outside the hull. The military subs likely don't have too many appendages (the stuff you'd mount outside rather than inside) because the feel the need for speed. Drag is a drag. (heh!) The viscosity of water at 0C is ~ 100 times that of air. Of course, for the Titan experimental sub, no, I don't see any need for speed.
Everything outside the hull would have to take that 5-6 ksi pressure too. Then, the fan-like thrusters have to be there, so that was obviously doable.
Al Corrupt
Monday - July 3rd 2023 5:08PM MST
PS
Water, especially in the form of ice is much more complicated than most people
Think… see
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice
IRT metal fatigue and submersibles, it was long thought that Russian submarines with titanium hulls would be much more subject to metal fatigue, although I never read about a titanium hull sub being lost.
Water, especially in the form of ice is much more complicated than most people
Think… see
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice
IRT metal fatigue and submersibles, it was long thought that Russian submarines with titanium hulls would be much more subject to metal fatigue, although I never read about a titanium hull sub being lost.
Sam J.
Sunday - July 2nd 2023 2:25PM MST
PS
Other possibilities that may be even less cost are ceramics made the same way as brick pavers.
"...Clay Pavers:
Clay pavers have a range of compressive strength from 10,000 to over 25,000 PSI. Clay pavers/brick are fired at temperatures in excess of 1800 degrees F which makes them one of the strongest building materials used. One of the highest recorded PSI for a clay paver was over 34,000: that is over 34,000 Pounds per square inch of pressure!..."
https://www.brickmanshall.com/post/clay-vs-concrete
Keep in mind the highest ocean pressure is,
36,200 feet=16,100 psi=249.59 MPa
These clay pavers have a reputation of being very durable. The cost would be not too high. Bricks are made in large volumes in kilns. Each section of the sub would only take up the space of, maybe 4 stacks of normal pavers, so these could be made in a normal kiln. The cost saving from not having to water cure like concrete for several months would be fairly high.
Other ceramics have even higher compressive strengths, though I do not know if they could be made in a normal kiln so cost could escalate.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ceramics-properties-d_1227.html
Other possibilities that may be even less cost are ceramics made the same way as brick pavers.
"...Clay Pavers:
Clay pavers have a range of compressive strength from 10,000 to over 25,000 PSI. Clay pavers/brick are fired at temperatures in excess of 1800 degrees F which makes them one of the strongest building materials used. One of the highest recorded PSI for a clay paver was over 34,000: that is over 34,000 Pounds per square inch of pressure!..."
https://www.brickmanshall.com/post/clay-vs-concrete
Keep in mind the highest ocean pressure is,
36,200 feet=16,100 psi=249.59 MPa
These clay pavers have a reputation of being very durable. The cost would be not too high. Bricks are made in large volumes in kilns. Each section of the sub would only take up the space of, maybe 4 stacks of normal pavers, so these could be made in a normal kiln. The cost saving from not having to water cure like concrete for several months would be fairly high.
Other ceramics have even higher compressive strengths, though I do not know if they could be made in a normal kiln so cost could escalate.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ceramics-properties-d_1227.html
Adam Smith
Sunday - July 2nd 2023 10:30AM MST
PS: Greetings, Sam,
Never heard of (or thought of) a concrete sub before. Thanks!
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA160232
http://imulead.com/tolimared/concretesubmarine/picturegallery/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_ship
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/the-concrete-fleet-of-wwii/
http://concretesubmarine.com/
Looks to me like this set of numbers is off...
1000 ft=459.062 psi=6.89 MPa
1,800 feet= 814.554 psi=12.41 MPa
14,000 feet=6,235 psi=96.53 MPa
19685 feet=8762 psi 80% of the Earth's surface=135.72 MPa
20,000 feet, =8,900 psi 98 percent of the ocean floor=137.90 MPa
36,200 feet=16,100 psi=249.59 MPa
I only noticed because you said "110 MPa=15,954 psi" and "21,755.7 psi = 150 MPa".
So I did a little checking...
15,954 psi = 109.99896 MPa
16,100 psi = 111.00559 MPa
21,755.7 psi = 150.0002712 MPa
So...
459.062 psi = 3.165121072 MPa
814.554 psi = 5.616152132 MPa
6235 psi = 42.98881 MPa
8762 psi = 60.41186 MPa
8900 psi = 61.36334 MPa
16,100 psi = 111.00559 MPa
But some of your pressures seem a little off too...
1,000 ft = 29.8 bar = 432.2125 psi
1,800 ft = 53.64 bar = 777.98243 psi
14,000 ft = 417.23 bar = 6051.40953 psi
19,685 ft = 586.66 bar = 8508.78392 psi
20,000 ft = 596.05 bar = 8644.97436 psi
36,200 ft = 1078.85 bar = 15647.39634 psi
So, unless I'm mistaken, shouldn't your numbers look more like this?
1,000 ft = 432.2125 psi = 2.9800002865 MPa
1,800 ft = 777.98243 psi = 5.36400003307 MPa
14,000 ft = 6051.40953 psi = 41.7229999899 MPa
19,685 ft = 8508.78392 psi = 58.66599998698 MPa
20,000 ft = 8644.97436 psi = 59.60500001641 MPa
36,200 ft = 15647.39634 psi = 107.88500003168 MPa
Am I missing something?
☮
Never heard of (or thought of) a concrete sub before. Thanks!
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA160232
http://imulead.com/tolimared/concretesubmarine/picturegallery/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_ship
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/the-concrete-fleet-of-wwii/
http://concretesubmarine.com/
Looks to me like this set of numbers is off...
1000 ft=459.062 psi=6.89 MPa
1,800 feet= 814.554 psi=12.41 MPa
14,000 feet=6,235 psi=96.53 MPa
19685 feet=8762 psi 80% of the Earth's surface=135.72 MPa
20,000 feet, =8,900 psi 98 percent of the ocean floor=137.90 MPa
36,200 feet=16,100 psi=249.59 MPa
I only noticed because you said "110 MPa=15,954 psi" and "21,755.7 psi = 150 MPa".
So I did a little checking...
15,954 psi = 109.99896 MPa
16,100 psi = 111.00559 MPa
21,755.7 psi = 150.0002712 MPa
So...
459.062 psi = 3.165121072 MPa
814.554 psi = 5.616152132 MPa
6235 psi = 42.98881 MPa
8762 psi = 60.41186 MPa
8900 psi = 61.36334 MPa
16,100 psi = 111.00559 MPa
But some of your pressures seem a little off too...
1,000 ft = 29.8 bar = 432.2125 psi
1,800 ft = 53.64 bar = 777.98243 psi
14,000 ft = 417.23 bar = 6051.40953 psi
19,685 ft = 586.66 bar = 8508.78392 psi
20,000 ft = 596.05 bar = 8644.97436 psi
36,200 ft = 1078.85 bar = 15647.39634 psi
So, unless I'm mistaken, shouldn't your numbers look more like this?
1,000 ft = 432.2125 psi = 2.9800002865 MPa
1,800 ft = 777.98243 psi = 5.36400003307 MPa
14,000 ft = 6051.40953 psi = 41.7229999899 MPa
19,685 ft = 8508.78392 psi = 58.66599998698 MPa
20,000 ft = 8644.97436 psi = 59.60500001641 MPa
36,200 ft = 15647.39634 psi = 107.88500003168 MPa
Am I missing something?
☮
Sam J.
Sunday - July 2nd 2023 8:27AM MST
PS
They would have been better off making it out of concrete. They have some concrete you can buy off the shelf that could stand up to the stresses at the bottom of the ocean.
I'm not sure about the stresses from going up and down many times. The Navy tested concrete spheres in the deep for 13 years. Some broke but most didn't and they were not special concrete. Search for "Long-Term, Deep Ocean Test of Concrete Spherical Structures - Results after 13 Years" and you can get the paper on it.
One thing I do not understand is if a tubular structure like a sub is under large tension in any manner. Does the pressure because of the length along the tube add up to a higher pressure than the ends, thus causing tension forces along the tube??? If not, no tension, at any high level, then concrete would be perfect.
I've always wondered, a lot, if you couldn't mix a concrete with a plastic like acrylic, they do, do this, and combined with graded aggregate to get high strength would it withstand cycling of pressure.
Some other thoughts. If all the forces are mostly tension, you could pour sections of concrete and then join them with rings of support. All pressure in, so no problems. Now here it says,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_hull
"...The dive depth cannot be increased easily. Simply making the hull thicker increases the weight and requires reduction of the weight of onboard equipment, ultimately resulting in a bathyscaphe. This is affordable for civilian research submersibles, but not military submarines, so their dive depth was always bounded by current technology..."
SO let's assume that weight is the problem. The why not make a large skirt of concrete around the hull filled with air for ballast. They do this already. It would seem the pressure would not be a problem as the air held under the skirt would be the same pressure as the water above, putting no strong stresses on the skirt. And another thought. Let’s say they lost air and it began to sink, but with a strong enough hull and maybe directional thrusters, so it could rise even if it sunk, it wouldn't break up. Another thought. You can make hydrogen and oxygen with electrolysis. Couldn't they put water hydrogen and oxygen generators in the ballast tanks and make oxygen ballast? Throw away the hydrogen by pumping it out and keep the oxygen???
Another idea I had. Use radio waves to send power through the concrete hull to the exterior. All functions you can put them outside the hull. The motors could be run off the radio waves. Batteries and other equipment could also be outside the hull. Doing this means no through hulls at all to weaken the vessel at depth. You could even put all the torpedoes in the ballast airspace outside the hull. So no noise of air release when fired. Drop them from racks like bombs from airplanes into the water and they take off.
Just for fun, here are some notes I saved on using concrete for submarines. And yes, I am a bit retarded to think about such things.
110 MPa=15,954 psi
The average depth of the ocean is about 4,267 meters (14,000 feet). The deepest part of the ocean is called the Challenger Deep and is located beneath the western Pacific Ocean in the southern end of the Mariana Trench, which runs several hundred kilometers southwest of the U.S. territorial island of Guam. Challenger Deep is approximately 11,030 meters (36,200 feet) deep.
The pressure at 11000m is calculated by Rho.G.h, it will be 1025(kg/m3) times 9,81(m/s/s) times 11000 (m) Which gives 110MPa of pressure.
1000 ft=459.062 psi=6.89 MPa
1,800 feet= 814.554 psi=12.41 MPa
14,000 feet=6,235 psi=96.53 MPa
19685 feet=8762 psi 80% of the Earth's surface=135.72 MPa
20,000 feet, =8,900 psi 98 percent of the ocean floor=137.90 MPa
36,200 feet=16,100 psi=249.59 MPa
Ultra-High Performance Concrete (UHPC), also known as reactive powder concrete (RPC)
29,000 pounds per square inch (psi) and flexural strengths up to 7,000 psi
Compressive: 120 to 150 MPa (17,000 to 22,000 psi)
Flexural:15 to 25 MPa (2200 to 3600 psi)
Modulus of Elasticity: 45 to 50 GPa (6500 to 7300 ksi)
https://www.quora.com/Who-makes-the-highest-strength-concrete?share=1
"...Highest concrete in general that is made so far (and that can be made technically) was by Lafarge. A product called 'Ductal', if I am not wrong (not sure). It had strength close to theoretical 235 MPa (34,000 psi) - [Power's and Brownyard Model] by developing the lowest gel/space ratio theoretically possible using portland cement..."
Low cost high strength mix concrete 21,755.7 psi = 150 MPa
Carbocrete with carbon fibers 1671 N/mm squared = 242,358.1 psi = 1.671e+9= 1,671MPa
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2021/08/affordable-superstrong-concrete-for-bridges.html
"...Ultra-high performance concrete mixes cost $360-650 per cubic yard and have compressive strength from 22,500 PSI to 29000 PSI. There are proprietary makers of stronger concrete with costs of $2000 per cubic yard. There have been test blocks of concrete with strengths of 60000 PSI. Regular concrete is usually at 3000-5000 PSI compressive strength..."
So you could easily get with concrete, available right now, with strengths to handle the deepest ocean pressures, with room to spare.
Note: The Army studied concrete and found with careful grading of the aggregate to fill all the spaces, you could use normal Portland cement and get super high strengths for not much in the way of increased cost.
BTW you can post-stress (compress) concrete with cables, so normal stresses for operations would not be a problem. They do this with apartment building slabs to reduce the amount of concrete need by a large amount.
They would have been better off making it out of concrete. They have some concrete you can buy off the shelf that could stand up to the stresses at the bottom of the ocean.
I'm not sure about the stresses from going up and down many times. The Navy tested concrete spheres in the deep for 13 years. Some broke but most didn't and they were not special concrete. Search for "Long-Term, Deep Ocean Test of Concrete Spherical Structures - Results after 13 Years" and you can get the paper on it.
One thing I do not understand is if a tubular structure like a sub is under large tension in any manner. Does the pressure because of the length along the tube add up to a higher pressure than the ends, thus causing tension forces along the tube??? If not, no tension, at any high level, then concrete would be perfect.
I've always wondered, a lot, if you couldn't mix a concrete with a plastic like acrylic, they do, do this, and combined with graded aggregate to get high strength would it withstand cycling of pressure.
Some other thoughts. If all the forces are mostly tension, you could pour sections of concrete and then join them with rings of support. All pressure in, so no problems. Now here it says,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_hull
"...The dive depth cannot be increased easily. Simply making the hull thicker increases the weight and requires reduction of the weight of onboard equipment, ultimately resulting in a bathyscaphe. This is affordable for civilian research submersibles, but not military submarines, so their dive depth was always bounded by current technology..."
SO let's assume that weight is the problem. The why not make a large skirt of concrete around the hull filled with air for ballast. They do this already. It would seem the pressure would not be a problem as the air held under the skirt would be the same pressure as the water above, putting no strong stresses on the skirt. And another thought. Let’s say they lost air and it began to sink, but with a strong enough hull and maybe directional thrusters, so it could rise even if it sunk, it wouldn't break up. Another thought. You can make hydrogen and oxygen with electrolysis. Couldn't they put water hydrogen and oxygen generators in the ballast tanks and make oxygen ballast? Throw away the hydrogen by pumping it out and keep the oxygen???
Another idea I had. Use radio waves to send power through the concrete hull to the exterior. All functions you can put them outside the hull. The motors could be run off the radio waves. Batteries and other equipment could also be outside the hull. Doing this means no through hulls at all to weaken the vessel at depth. You could even put all the torpedoes in the ballast airspace outside the hull. So no noise of air release when fired. Drop them from racks like bombs from airplanes into the water and they take off.
Just for fun, here are some notes I saved on using concrete for submarines. And yes, I am a bit retarded to think about such things.
110 MPa=15,954 psi
The average depth of the ocean is about 4,267 meters (14,000 feet). The deepest part of the ocean is called the Challenger Deep and is located beneath the western Pacific Ocean in the southern end of the Mariana Trench, which runs several hundred kilometers southwest of the U.S. territorial island of Guam. Challenger Deep is approximately 11,030 meters (36,200 feet) deep.
The pressure at 11000m is calculated by Rho.G.h, it will be 1025(kg/m3) times 9,81(m/s/s) times 11000 (m) Which gives 110MPa of pressure.
1000 ft=459.062 psi=6.89 MPa
1,800 feet= 814.554 psi=12.41 MPa
14,000 feet=6,235 psi=96.53 MPa
19685 feet=8762 psi 80% of the Earth's surface=135.72 MPa
20,000 feet, =8,900 psi 98 percent of the ocean floor=137.90 MPa
36,200 feet=16,100 psi=249.59 MPa
Ultra-High Performance Concrete (UHPC), also known as reactive powder concrete (RPC)
29,000 pounds per square inch (psi) and flexural strengths up to 7,000 psi
Compressive: 120 to 150 MPa (17,000 to 22,000 psi)
Flexural:15 to 25 MPa (2200 to 3600 psi)
Modulus of Elasticity: 45 to 50 GPa (6500 to 7300 ksi)
https://www.quora.com/Who-makes-the-highest-strength-concrete?share=1
"...Highest concrete in general that is made so far (and that can be made technically) was by Lafarge. A product called 'Ductal', if I am not wrong (not sure). It had strength close to theoretical 235 MPa (34,000 psi) - [Power's and Brownyard Model] by developing the lowest gel/space ratio theoretically possible using portland cement..."
Low cost high strength mix concrete 21,755.7 psi = 150 MPa
Carbocrete with carbon fibers 1671 N/mm squared = 242,358.1 psi = 1.671e+9= 1,671MPa
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2021/08/affordable-superstrong-concrete-for-bridges.html
"...Ultra-high performance concrete mixes cost $360-650 per cubic yard and have compressive strength from 22,500 PSI to 29000 PSI. There are proprietary makers of stronger concrete with costs of $2000 per cubic yard. There have been test blocks of concrete with strengths of 60000 PSI. Regular concrete is usually at 3000-5000 PSI compressive strength..."
So you could easily get with concrete, available right now, with strengths to handle the deepest ocean pressures, with room to spare.
Note: The Army studied concrete and found with careful grading of the aggregate to fill all the spaces, you could use normal Portland cement and get super high strengths for not much in the way of increased cost.
BTW you can post-stress (compress) concrete with cables, so normal stresses for operations would not be a problem. They do this with apartment building slabs to reduce the amount of concrete need by a large amount.
Dieter Kief
Sunday - July 2nd 2023 4:00AM MST
PS
They thought they could outsmart the Boeing carbon-fibre quality control and use material, Boeing had decided not to use - getting it for small amounts of money - - - of course - - - - - could outsmart the Boeing quality control with their sonnar carbon fibre crack device - - -but that might not have worked as perfectly well as they thought.
They thought they could outsmart the Boeing carbon-fibre quality control and use material, Boeing had decided not to use - getting it for small amounts of money - - - of course - - - - - could outsmart the Boeing quality control with their sonnar carbon fibre crack device - - -but that might not have worked as perfectly well as they thought.
Dieter Kief
Sunday - July 2nd 2023 2:00AM MST
PS
Yep Adam - there might have been a chance to market the TiTAN dives better.-
On the other hand: Now I combine two theories: Peter Tuchin's idea of the way too many people in the elite - making this elite - self-destructive.
Then I add Dr. Freud's deep death wish, in all of us.
Ok - I add one more theory: The status-seeker theory, popularised by Tom Wolfe and his closest follower on earth to this date - - - one Mr. Steve Sailer, a blogger who recently gave his first public speech in ten years - : - remarkable - - .
The death wish and the status-seeking of the superfluous and deeply, hehe, -u-n-happy/ happy few is best served by a super exclusive and super risky deep dive to the Titanic of old - - - just to come in touch with the titanian*** magic the so much - - -lust /'n' long for.
***the Titans were the first lineage of Gods - - - Zeus, head ot the second one - was their offspring - - -
Here's more background - - -also a super tearful article by a science writer who almost went on a Titan-dive - - - couldn't find the english version;
This is a German version of a business insider article
I was on the Titan, but my trip got canceld - - it feels as if I had been playing Roussian Roulette -and won!
Ich war auf einem Titan-Tauchgang, der abgebrochen wurde – es fühlt sich an, als hätte ich russisches Roulette gespielt und gewonnen (msn.com)
the same science writer about the background and - gazillions! - -of
Titan details
https://tinyurl.com/8stde867
Yep Adam - there might have been a chance to market the TiTAN dives better.-
On the other hand: Now I combine two theories: Peter Tuchin's idea of the way too many people in the elite - making this elite - self-destructive.
Then I add Dr. Freud's deep death wish, in all of us.
Ok - I add one more theory: The status-seeker theory, popularised by Tom Wolfe and his closest follower on earth to this date - - - one Mr. Steve Sailer, a blogger who recently gave his first public speech in ten years - : - remarkable - - .
The death wish and the status-seeking of the superfluous and deeply, hehe, -u-n-happy/ happy few is best served by a super exclusive and super risky deep dive to the Titanic of old - - - just to come in touch with the titanian*** magic the so much - - -lust /'n' long for.
***the Titans were the first lineage of Gods - - - Zeus, head ot the second one - was their offspring - - -
Here's more background - - -also a super tearful article by a science writer who almost went on a Titan-dive - - - couldn't find the english version;
This is a German version of a business insider article
I was on the Titan, but my trip got canceld - - it feels as if I had been playing Roussian Roulette -and won!
Ich war auf einem Titan-Tauchgang, der abgebrochen wurde – es fühlt sich an, als hätte ich russisches Roulette gespielt und gewonnen (msn.com)
the same science writer about the background and - gazillions! - -of
Titan details
https://tinyurl.com/8stde867
The Alarmist
Saturday - July 1st 2023 12:06PM MST
PS
lulz ....
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/image0000066.jpg
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/thumbnail_1688028516047blob.jpg
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/92cd579846af7466.png
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/White-Men.jpg
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/cea6376bd6d8e176.png
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/12c1b9b5f40893db.jpg
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/sub6.jpg
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/9e9d820be07f3d31.jpg
lulz ....
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/image0000066.jpg
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/thumbnail_1688028516047blob.jpg
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/92cd579846af7466.png
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/White-Men.jpg
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/cea6376bd6d8e176.png
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/12c1b9b5f40893db.jpg
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/sub6.jpg
https://westernrifleshooters.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/9e9d820be07f3d31.jpg
Adam Smith
Saturday - July 1st 2023 7:30AM MST
PS: Good morning, Dieter,
If the passengers are just staring at screens to view the Titanic wreckage then everyone would have been better off if OceanGate sent down a remote vehicle with lights and cameras while the passengers stayed on the support ship where they could view the wreck on their screens in safety and comfort. I guess OceanGate couldn't charge $250,000 per seat for such a voyage but they could make up for that by taking on more passengers. It's not nearly as adventurous but it does make more sense than climbing into the death pod to meet your cold watery demise.
Yet another sign that Achmed will never run out of things to blog about?
Happy Saturday!
☮
If the passengers are just staring at screens to view the Titanic wreckage then everyone would have been better off if OceanGate sent down a remote vehicle with lights and cameras while the passengers stayed on the support ship where they could view the wreck on their screens in safety and comfort. I guess OceanGate couldn't charge $250,000 per seat for such a voyage but they could make up for that by taking on more passengers. It's not nearly as adventurous but it does make more sense than climbing into the death pod to meet your cold watery demise.
Yet another sign that Achmed will never run out of things to blog about?
Happy Saturday!
☮
Dieter Kief
Saturday - July 1st 2023 4:11AM MST
PS
Right Mod. - there is this window in the back of the Titan (what a name -) what I read was: The passengers would nevertheless stare mostly on the cell-phone/I-pod-screens, because what they's see there would be - of higher visibility than what the window allows.
Right Mod. - there is this window in the back of the Titan (what a name -) what I read was: The passengers would nevertheless stare mostly on the cell-phone/I-pod-screens, because what they's see there would be - of higher visibility than what the window allows.
Adam Smith
Friday - June 30th 2023 2:53PM MST
PS: Lol... Ted Kennedy could not be reached for a comment...
17 indeed. I counted 16 bolts on the view port, but the view port does not open. Evidently there are 17 bolts on the dome. (I haven't counted them either.) I would imagine you could use a plug door, even on an experimental sub as they do use them on real submarines. Maybe the boring 50 year old white guys would have added that to the design.(?) Who knows?
Anyway, here are a few more videos...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9YB31ElEFQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWyitRxE-uY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5C7sqVe2Vg
Happy evening!
☮
17 indeed. I counted 16 bolts on the view port, but the view port does not open. Evidently there are 17 bolts on the dome. (I haven't counted them either.) I would imagine you could use a plug door, even on an experimental sub as they do use them on real submarines. Maybe the boring 50 year old white guys would have added that to the design.(?) Who knows?
Anyway, here are a few more videos...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9YB31ElEFQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWyitRxE-uY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5C7sqVe2Vg
Happy evening!
☮
Moderator
Friday - June 30th 2023 1:54PM MST
PS: Right, Adam. It's completely dark down there. With the use of some nice lighting, it would be a pretty cool thing to be able to be there nosing around the Titanic. Yes, I would have wanted a way to get out for that occasion. One wonders of any bolts are even needed once that pressure gets on up. Like a "plug" door, as with most exit doors on airliners, there's no opening it when under significant pressure. Those doors are plugs on the inside.
In this case that end piece with the 17 bolts (he said 17, but I didn't count 'em ;-} ) the force on that piece would be so high as to hold the piece tight against that seal, where there would be pressure on that very thin diameter of seal, but then, the friction force metal-seal and seal-metal again would be huge.
When I first saw it, I thought "I guess they have nuts on the inside (with a couple of wrenches - redundancy!). Nope. Did they do this thinking at all, that's the question that the Sub expert seems to be pondering.
Just as a fun exercise, let's say that a couple of the stronger guys could push with 400 lb total (if they have something to react against inside). If that plug is 1.5' diameter - just guessing a close number - that's ~ 1,000 square inches of area. They could open it if the pressure was 0.4 psi or lower. Man, that's only ~ 0.3 atm or 1 ft underwater on average. Granted, that's silly, as they'd be almost up, and they could leverage the top end. Of course there is probably some engineering solution that could let them get out at a reasonable depth where the body doesn't get hurt.
If only Ted Kennedy had been around to work with the engineering team on this type of problem. Whoa, low blow there, huh?
In this case that end piece with the 17 bolts (he said 17, but I didn't count 'em ;-} ) the force on that piece would be so high as to hold the piece tight against that seal, where there would be pressure on that very thin diameter of seal, but then, the friction force metal-seal and seal-metal again would be huge.
When I first saw it, I thought "I guess they have nuts on the inside (with a couple of wrenches - redundancy!). Nope. Did they do this thinking at all, that's the question that the Sub expert seems to be pondering.
Just as a fun exercise, let's say that a couple of the stronger guys could push with 400 lb total (if they have something to react against inside). If that plug is 1.5' diameter - just guessing a close number - that's ~ 1,000 square inches of area. They could open it if the pressure was 0.4 psi or lower. Man, that's only ~ 0.3 atm or 1 ft underwater on average. Granted, that's silly, as they'd be almost up, and they could leverage the top end. Of course there is probably some engineering solution that could let them get out at a reasonable depth where the body doesn't get hurt.
If only Ted Kennedy had been around to work with the engineering team on this type of problem. Whoa, low blow there, huh?
Adam Smith
Friday - June 30th 2023 1:23PM MST
PS: Greetings, everyone,
Mr. Moderator, “Aaron did not mention much about a possible impact with the bottom or a piece of the old Titanic. Could that have happened after a loss of control?”
Yes. It definitely could happen. It must have been some other video I watched, but they talked about how the submersible could crash into the Titanic not just through loss of control (eg. the wireless controller acting up for whatever reason) but also by being pushed by ocean currents. They said that this did indeed happen on one such voyage to the Titanic. The submersible got stuck on the propeller of the ship and it took a good while, and a very skilled pilot, to get the sub unstuck.*
“I also don't get Sub Brief man's whole worry about getting out of this thing in a hurry, such as in a fire. That'd only be important very near the surface. Otherwise, nobody's getting out, period, hurry or not.”
I think Aaron's concern was in a situation where the submersible was floating on top to the ocean, but still lost at sea, the passengers would still be locked in. The only way to open the submersible is by removing 16 bolts from the outside. If the sub was lost for more than 96 hours bobbing around in the ocean the passengers would still run out of oxygen. I think his concerns about having a fire onboard with no way to evacuate the smoke are warranted, but as you say, at a depth greater than not very deep (like maybe 50 feet?) this point is moot.
* So I looked it up. This is not the source where I first found this information, (it was some other video) but here's the link...
https://abc7chicago.com/missing-titanic-sub-wreckage-tour-first-reports-from/13411194/
This thing did have one small window that everyone could take turns looking through. Not sure how much you can see though. I hear it's pretty dark down there.
https://i.ibb.co/f0MP6SL/Stockton-Rush-Looking-Through-Window.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/rGNvksM/Mike-Reiss-Titan-Voyage.jpg
Cheers!
☮
Mr. Moderator, “Aaron did not mention much about a possible impact with the bottom or a piece of the old Titanic. Could that have happened after a loss of control?”
Yes. It definitely could happen. It must have been some other video I watched, but they talked about how the submersible could crash into the Titanic not just through loss of control (eg. the wireless controller acting up for whatever reason) but also by being pushed by ocean currents. They said that this did indeed happen on one such voyage to the Titanic. The submersible got stuck on the propeller of the ship and it took a good while, and a very skilled pilot, to get the sub unstuck.*
“I also don't get Sub Brief man's whole worry about getting out of this thing in a hurry, such as in a fire. That'd only be important very near the surface. Otherwise, nobody's getting out, period, hurry or not.”
I think Aaron's concern was in a situation where the submersible was floating on top to the ocean, but still lost at sea, the passengers would still be locked in. The only way to open the submersible is by removing 16 bolts from the outside. If the sub was lost for more than 96 hours bobbing around in the ocean the passengers would still run out of oxygen. I think his concerns about having a fire onboard with no way to evacuate the smoke are warranted, but as you say, at a depth greater than not very deep (like maybe 50 feet?) this point is moot.
* So I looked it up. This is not the source where I first found this information, (it was some other video) but here's the link...
https://abc7chicago.com/missing-titanic-sub-wreckage-tour-first-reports-from/13411194/
This thing did have one small window that everyone could take turns looking through. Not sure how much you can see though. I hear it's pretty dark down there.
https://i.ibb.co/f0MP6SL/Stockton-Rush-Looking-Through-Window.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/rGNvksM/Mike-Reiss-Titan-Voyage.jpg
Cheers!
☮
Moderator
Friday - June 30th 2023 12:50PM MST
PS: Fred, the Gator, that makes a lot of sense, but the title still read kid of wrong then. I wrote that it's a well-known book, but I haven't even read it. I think long ago I heard an aural version of this - radio or a recording, I cannot remember? It was suspenseful and scary, but with good music I think...
Moderator
Friday - June 30th 2023 12:48PM MST
PS: Dieter, this should be clear, no pun intended, but did the sub have a window or not? I'd read that that was the complaint by many - what's the difference between this manned mission and a robot, if one doesn't even have a window. I have seen a picture of the Titan with a view port at the other end from the exit/entry end.
I also don't get Sub Brief man's whole worry about getting out of this thing in a hurry, such as in a fire. That'd only be important very near the surface. Otherwise, nobody's getting out, period, hurry or not.
Alarmist, sure, I hope nobody screwed anything into those composite walls the way technicians attach conduit or what-have-you to steel beams or columns. Nah, as with my family's new laptop screen, it's probably "all glue nowadays!" In the world of high tech, you don't use the word "glueing" though. Things are "bonded" - sounds a whole lot more reasuring.
I also don't get Sub Brief man's whole worry about getting out of this thing in a hurry, such as in a fire. That'd only be important very near the surface. Otherwise, nobody's getting out, period, hurry or not.
Alarmist, sure, I hope nobody screwed anything into those composite walls the way technicians attach conduit or what-have-you to steel beams or columns. Nah, as with my family's new laptop screen, it's probably "all glue nowadays!" In the world of high tech, you don't use the word "glueing" though. Things are "bonded" - sounds a whole lot more reasuring.
Moderator
Friday - June 30th 2023 12:40PM MST
PS: Thanks for the videos (some again), Adam. I watched the 20 min. Sub Brief guy's talk. We have more hindsight than he did then, so I guess one can discount the talk about the air and other gas quality, fire, etc. That's not to say he's not right that the designers may have missed a lot of safety features, but that it looks like the sub's hull was destroyed.
I want to write another post on this. Again, though I liked writing about the engineering* for the purpose of explaining why I think engineers, white or any other, may not be as good in some ways as the now-over-50 set, I don't know any more about what happened than most people.
This Sub Brief guy (Aaron?) did not mention much about a possible impact with the bottom or a piece of the old Titanic. Could that have happened after a loss of control? He did discuss the controls, and I agree with him wholeheartedly about not putting one's life in the hands of one (or even many) battery-operated bluetooth-connected devices!
* No, no comparative lit professor here, SafeNow. On occasion I've gotten pretty lit in comparison to anybody, if that helps!
I want to write another post on this. Again, though I liked writing about the engineering* for the purpose of explaining why I think engineers, white or any other, may not be as good in some ways as the now-over-50 set, I don't know any more about what happened than most people.
This Sub Brief guy (Aaron?) did not mention much about a possible impact with the bottom or a piece of the old Titanic. Could that have happened after a loss of control? He did discuss the controls, and I agree with him wholeheartedly about not putting one's life in the hands of one (or even many) battery-operated bluetooth-connected devices!
* No, no comparative lit professor here, SafeNow. On occasion I've gotten pretty lit in comparison to anybody, if that helps!
Fred the Gator
Friday - June 30th 2023 6:49AM MST
PS I believe the 20,000 leagues meant a journey of 20,000 leagues, not 20,000 leagues below the surface of the sea. The title then would mean circumnavigating the globe three times, but that's doable with nuclear power, right?
The Alarmist
Friday - June 30th 2023 5:49AM MST
PS
You can do all the hi-falutin calculating you like, but it takes one technician screwing a monitor mount and other fixtures to the interior wall of that tube to render it all moot.
You can do all the hi-falutin calculating you like, but it takes one technician screwing a monitor mount and other fixtures to the interior wall of that tube to render it all moot.
Dieter Kief
Thursday - June 29th 2023 11:21PM MST
PS
One (ok:two, hehe) more thing(s): 1) The submersible-designers bought carbon fiber plates that had been sorted out by Boeing - for quality reasons.
2) What you left out is the idea to actually experience something interesting by diving down to the iron grave of hundreds of people, called Titanic, while staring at laptops or cell-phones because the thing has no windows. This very idea is bizarre - as long as you don't put mephistophelian glasses on (and sciological Tom Wolfe-status-glasses too).
Now - - - this whole enterprise is also in a dark way - can't help it: The kind of fun Goethe had in Faust - and for which to show up, he invented - - - Mephisto for.
The late Dr. Freud was one of the most profound/thorough Goethe-readers ever and one of his visions, after a life spent talking to members of the European elite mostly 8 - 10 hrs./day was - - - a mephistophelian idea he finally came up with: The death wish as a permanent mephistophelian - marker/stamp on our existence).
The humorous geniuses of the .N.e.w. Frankfurt School dug this stuff (two of them were quite serious and knowledgeable Goethe-scholars) and called their satirical paper: TITANIC in 1977 if I remember right - it still exists, but the original crew has been wiped out almost completely by cancer ca. ten years ago, and the heavy handed lefty drunkards who run it now - well: They try...
Another related thing: Genius German essayist, mathematician and poet Hans Magnus Enzensberger (ca. 99 000 cigarettes, 1929 - 2022, never in any kind of medical insurance because of mistrust in - big bureaucratic entities) wrote a collection of poetry, which reflects on the darker/delusional side of the optimism that goes along with technical progress called Der Untergang der Titanic: This one is translated: Enzensberger, Hans Magnus (1980). The sinking of the Titanic : a poem. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co. ISBN 0-395-29120-8. OCLC 588904
It is a great small book. Enzensberger thought it would be his best, I still would love to disagree with him a bit here. A reason for its greatness is, that it is close to the mephistophelian (light hearted/quick witted (=deeply comical) mindset not only with regard to the blind optimism of technical progress, but also with regard to the social engineering that took place in the communist world in the 20th century - because he wrote it in large parts on Fidel Castro's Cuba, where he spend half a year+. He mailed the manuscript from there to Frankfurt - it was the only copy - - and got lost in the mail. This had happened to him before with his doctoral thesis of 300 p. (in this case, the universit beauraucracy lost track of it - he rewrote this one too from memory - in two weeks).
One (ok:two, hehe) more thing(s): 1) The submersible-designers bought carbon fiber plates that had been sorted out by Boeing - for quality reasons.
2) What you left out is the idea to actually experience something interesting by diving down to the iron grave of hundreds of people, called Titanic, while staring at laptops or cell-phones because the thing has no windows. This very idea is bizarre - as long as you don't put mephistophelian glasses on (and sciological Tom Wolfe-status-glasses too).
Now - - - this whole enterprise is also in a dark way - can't help it: The kind of fun Goethe had in Faust - and for which to show up, he invented - - - Mephisto for.
The late Dr. Freud was one of the most profound/thorough Goethe-readers ever and one of his visions, after a life spent talking to members of the European elite mostly 8 - 10 hrs./day was - - - a mephistophelian idea he finally came up with: The death wish as a permanent mephistophelian - marker/stamp on our existence).
The humorous geniuses of the .N.e.w. Frankfurt School dug this stuff (two of them were quite serious and knowledgeable Goethe-scholars) and called their satirical paper: TITANIC in 1977 if I remember right - it still exists, but the original crew has been wiped out almost completely by cancer ca. ten years ago, and the heavy handed lefty drunkards who run it now - well: They try...
Another related thing: Genius German essayist, mathematician and poet Hans Magnus Enzensberger (ca. 99 000 cigarettes, 1929 - 2022, never in any kind of medical insurance because of mistrust in - big bureaucratic entities) wrote a collection of poetry, which reflects on the darker/delusional side of the optimism that goes along with technical progress called Der Untergang der Titanic: This one is translated: Enzensberger, Hans Magnus (1980). The sinking of the Titanic : a poem. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co. ISBN 0-395-29120-8. OCLC 588904
It is a great small book. Enzensberger thought it would be his best, I still would love to disagree with him a bit here. A reason for its greatness is, that it is close to the mephistophelian (light hearted/quick witted (=deeply comical) mindset not only with regard to the blind optimism of technical progress, but also with regard to the social engineering that took place in the communist world in the 20th century - because he wrote it in large parts on Fidel Castro's Cuba, where he spend half a year+. He mailed the manuscript from there to Frankfurt - it was the only copy - - and got lost in the mail. This had happened to him before with his doctoral thesis of 300 p. (in this case, the universit beauraucracy lost track of it - he rewrote this one too from memory - in two weeks).
SafeNow
Thursday - June 29th 2023 11:09PM MST
PS
That’s a fantastic engineering explanation by Mr. Moderator. I wish I could
follow it, but he had me at “take a slice.”. Well, I’m exaggerating, I got the gist of it. I am now sure Mr. M got a heckuva lot out of the George Guidestones, calculating stress ratios carefully preventing collapse (little could the builders imagine…) and so on. I am now assuming that Mr. M is not, say, a comparative-Lit professor (although he could’ve been), but rather, some kind of engineer. Kudos for understanding engineering, politics, culture, all at the same time. Very wide, as Balzac said.
That’s a fantastic engineering explanation by Mr. Moderator. I wish I could
follow it, but he had me at “take a slice.”. Well, I’m exaggerating, I got the gist of it. I am now sure Mr. M got a heckuva lot out of the George Guidestones, calculating stress ratios carefully preventing collapse (little could the builders imagine…) and so on. I am now assuming that Mr. M is not, say, a comparative-Lit professor (although he could’ve been), but rather, some kind of engineer. Kudos for understanding engineering, politics, culture, all at the same time. Very wide, as Balzac said.
SafeNow
Thursday - June 29th 2023 6:48PM MST
PS
The Coast Guard conducted a wide search for the submersible, in case it had popped-up to the surface somewhere. The USCG has the best software anywhere that models weather patterns and ocean currents, beginning from the time the “rescue me” event occurred, to predict where the victim is most likely to be NOW. This is an example of computer-modeling-YES!
Now the opposite. A cutter rescue swimmer, by rule, is not permitted to enter a capsized hull floating on the surface. This rule comes from (to my knowledge) a human judgment so subtle and mysterious that you can’t pinpoint where the heck the judgment comes from…it just feels like allowing the act would be too risky and stupid.
The Coast Guard conducted a wide search for the submersible, in case it had popped-up to the surface somewhere. The USCG has the best software anywhere that models weather patterns and ocean currents, beginning from the time the “rescue me” event occurred, to predict where the victim is most likely to be NOW. This is an example of computer-modeling-YES!
Now the opposite. A cutter rescue swimmer, by rule, is not permitted to enter a capsized hull floating on the surface. This rule comes from (to my knowledge) a human judgment so subtle and mysterious that you can’t pinpoint where the heck the judgment comes from…it just feels like allowing the act would be too risky and stupid.
Adam Smith
Thursday - June 29th 2023 4:03PM MST
PS: Good evening to you, Achmed & Dieter,
"OceanGate didn't use my tax money...”
Well... Aside from the covid subsidies that OceanGate received, there was quite a bit of tax money spent on the search and the recovery. By my quick calculations the U.S. "government” alone spent low 8 figures on all those aircraft, coastguard and navy ships. The Canadian "government” and the French "government” also spent some tax cattle money on the rescue/recovery effort.
“What about that sub? I don't know. It wasn't going to undergo thousands of cycles, but again, things get more complicated with new materials.”
This submersible made ~30 trips to the Titanic and ~200 other dives of unknown (to me) depths. I think the carbon fiber hull got stressed with each dive, especially the expeditions to the Titanic. Carbon fiber is very strong, but when it fails it shatters.
Here's an interesting video that I watched a day or two before the media reported the demise of the Titan (which includes the Stockton Rush interview about how 50 year old white guys aren't inspirational)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dka29FSZac
And here is his follow up video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaPbAxVBVaQ
I wrote this under a comment a few posts back, but it seems more appropriate here...
A little info about submersibles...
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/bathyscaphe/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste_(bathyscaphe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepsea_Challenger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_Submarines
Hope you guys have a great evening!
☮
"OceanGate didn't use my tax money...”
Well... Aside from the covid subsidies that OceanGate received, there was quite a bit of tax money spent on the search and the recovery. By my quick calculations the U.S. "government” alone spent low 8 figures on all those aircraft, coastguard and navy ships. The Canadian "government” and the French "government” also spent some tax cattle money on the rescue/recovery effort.
“What about that sub? I don't know. It wasn't going to undergo thousands of cycles, but again, things get more complicated with new materials.”
This submersible made ~30 trips to the Titanic and ~200 other dives of unknown (to me) depths. I think the carbon fiber hull got stressed with each dive, especially the expeditions to the Titanic. Carbon fiber is very strong, but when it fails it shatters.
Here's an interesting video that I watched a day or two before the media reported the demise of the Titan (which includes the Stockton Rush interview about how 50 year old white guys aren't inspirational)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dka29FSZac
And here is his follow up video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaPbAxVBVaQ
I wrote this under a comment a few posts back, but it seems more appropriate here...
A little info about submersibles...
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/bathyscaphe/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste_(bathyscaphe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepsea_Challenger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_Submarines
Hope you guys have a great evening!
☮
Moderator
Thursday - June 29th 2023 3:48PM MST
PS: Ahh, I didn't catch or remember that, Dieter. That's "CARES Act" money. I will put in an EDIT.
Dieter Kief
Thursday - June 29th 2023 3:20PM MST
PS
As mentioned before, Mod. the darn thing did cost tax-money, because they got Covid-subsidies.
As mentioned before, Mod. the darn thing did cost tax-money, because they got Covid-subsidies.
(Sorry about the late reply.)
Thanks for the “Titan Sub... Russian Roulette” story. I found a link to the original English version at the end of your German translation...
https://www.insider.com/titan-sub-safety-david-pogue-trip-2023-6
Very interesting what you're saying about this Titan Submersible Trip to the Titanic being not merely an exotic form of conspicuous consumption ala Veblen, but a symptom of the overall destructiveness (dare I call it insanity?) of modern day “elites”.
https://peterturchin.com/elite-overproduction-brings-disorder/
https://tinyurl.com/5vsnvf2z
☮