Posted On: Wednesday - January 31st 2024 8:26AM MST
In Topics: Cars Inflation
... acid to acid, lead to lead, dust to dust.
Speaking of the lead, I used to empty these out and keep them for lead, just in case, you know... A decade ago, they didn't WANT your old battery back. Now, they charge you a $15 core charge if you don't GIVE IT to them.
The battery in one of our vehicles was getting weak, even before the recent very cold weather. I looked at the circular cut-outs on the sticker-label. Yep, this 6 year battery had 6 years and 9 months on it. Back in the day, I know that my car batteries would last a decade easily, without special handling. That's not so now, but at least these Interstate Battery folks kept their promise, and they were much more accurate than the weathermen ... and weather ladies... except, in the latter case, who cares?
As a slight digression toward some car talk, this 1980s* vehicle was a little weird about battery weakness. About two months back I noticed that the battery was obviously weak so I figured it wasn't long for the world, but I started cranking it up more frequently to charge it. Then, in the warmer weather even, there in the driveway, it just gave me nothing. I heard not even the slightest effort by the starter and not even the starter solenoid click. However, the annunciator lights were bright, and the headlights were bright enough to reflect off things even in the bright daylight.
This stick-shift drive vehicle has an interlock on the clutch pedal, as I guess most do, which has not worked so well a few times. (I just had to be right down to the floor on the clutch.) Was that the problem? It wasn't, luckily (probably not a very hard job though), as I was able to start with a jump. However, I wonder if there's some relay that limits any power to the starter based on battery voltage(?) It was just weird how there is this hard limit - nothing at all happens below it.
Car talk nearly aside, I was going to buy a battery even before knowing for sure that was my problem. After all, if I milked this one for 6 months or a year, a new one would be enough higher in price to negate any savings.
That's how you have to think now, bringing us to the topic at hand. This post will now be a simple inflation calculation. Peak Stupidity has done dozens of these, which can be perused under our Inflation topic key. We've even done car batteries already here. Why the duplicate post? Well, the early price number in my head last time was only good to 10% or so last post, and my duration of 15 years was approximate. This time it will be purely apples to apples with prices known to the dollar** and duration to the month. Also, I replaced my battery with the exact same model number this time. I had a 650 cold cranking amps rating, and that's what I wanted again.***
Here we go:
April '17 price - $137 ****
January '24 price - $218
Thanks again to Money Chimp, I get a compounded inflation rate of ... drum roll please ...
6.9% average over the last ~ 7 years!*****
Last time, a period roughly from the early/mid 00's to '19, I got 5-6% (a range to show my uncertainty).
Yes, inflation is and HAS BEEN a thing. Anything with a very long shelf life - if you've got the extra cash and the room, just buy it.
* That's as far as I'll go for anti-doxxing reasons, haha. Will they track me by our vehicle fleet "footprint", as computers are tracked by their software version/plug-ins footprints? It usually doesn't hurt to be overly paranoid. (One time it did - long story...)
** This was easy, as I went to the month in question from the cut-out circles (Year and Month) on the battery and went to my records there. Also, 7 years back I had bought a battery and nothing but a battery.
*** For another vehicle, I had to buy a battery almost 2 in. wider to get the same rating I'd had previously. It barely fits in the car - not gonna be fun taking it out.
**** In my world, expenses are rounded up to the nearest dollar and income is rounded down.
***** This time, instead of compounding yearly, which doesn't really mean much in these calculations, in the "Compound interest time(s) annually" box I put a large number, 100. It's not like the difference is much (a couple of percent - NOT percentage points - difference in the rate), if you put "1" there, over many-year durations. Inflation doesn't happen monthly as do interest payments by the bank - it's continual. Shorter calculation periods go asymptotically to one number.
Comments:
Adam Smith
Saturday - February 3rd 2024 2:41PM MST
PS: Greetings M,
“I'm not a mechanic. But they fit with my intuition that the battery is mostly to start the motor; everything else is a minor draw.”
This is mostly correct...
Yes, the starter is the single largest user of electricity from the battery. (About 150-200amps for a v6 engine) And by themselves each separate circuit is a relatively minor draw. But lets say you're going down the road and it's night time, and raining, and cold outside. You have your headlights on, your wipers on, and your blower motor is spinning to keep the car warm. (Aside from your electrical system providing power to your computer modules and sensors, and providing electricity to your coil or ignition modules to provide spark to your spark plugs, and power to your fuel pump, and power to the radio, etc.) As you can see these things add up. If you were to disconnect your alternator and run on just your battery you wouldn't make it very far.
So I would amend your statement to say something like...
The battery is mostly to start the engine; once the engine is running the alternator provides enough electricity to charge the battery and power all the other circuits and devices in the car.
Cheers! ☮️
“I'm not a mechanic. But they fit with my intuition that the battery is mostly to start the motor; everything else is a minor draw.”
This is mostly correct...
Yes, the starter is the single largest user of electricity from the battery. (About 150-200amps for a v6 engine) And by themselves each separate circuit is a relatively minor draw. But lets say you're going down the road and it's night time, and raining, and cold outside. You have your headlights on, your wipers on, and your blower motor is spinning to keep the car warm. (Aside from your electrical system providing power to your computer modules and sensors, and providing electricity to your coil or ignition modules to provide spark to your spark plugs, and power to your fuel pump, and power to the radio, etc.) As you can see these things add up. If you were to disconnect your alternator and run on just your battery you wouldn't make it very far.
So I would amend your statement to say something like...
The battery is mostly to start the engine; once the engine is running the alternator provides enough electricity to charge the battery and power all the other circuits and devices in the car.
Cheers! ☮️
M
Wednesday - January 31st 2024 3:25PM MST
PS
"wouldn't I at least have enough amperage to power the starter solenoid, if the lights came on bright"
You could look at the amperage of the headlight fuse for an idea how much it should draw (it will be rather less than that).
Typical car battery can put out 600 amps or more while cranking. It has to push the engine fast enough for it to start - even while geared down so it can turn the shaft.
Compared to that load, everything else in your vehicle would be minor. Starter solenoid seems to be max of 25 amps or so.
These figures are from search; I'm not a mechanic. But they fit with my intuition that the battery is mostly to start the motor; everything else is a minor draw.
"wouldn't I at least have enough amperage to power the starter solenoid, if the lights came on bright"
You could look at the amperage of the headlight fuse for an idea how much it should draw (it will be rather less than that).
Typical car battery can put out 600 amps or more while cranking. It has to push the engine fast enough for it to start - even while geared down so it can turn the shaft.
Compared to that load, everything else in your vehicle would be minor. Starter solenoid seems to be max of 25 amps or so.
These figures are from search; I'm not a mechanic. But they fit with my intuition that the battery is mostly to start the motor; everything else is a minor draw.
Moderator
Wednesday - January 31st 2024 2:43PM MST
PS: That was to be "... story of the old battery..." (2 typos within a 5 word sequence!)
Possum Man, I'm afraid you're right, as I could have got that "Maxx" one for less (my price did include tax and the various fees that can add up to maybe $20.
Also, per Wal-Mart site: "If you need to get rid of your old battery, there is free battery recycling at your local Walmart Price shown does not include the Core Battery charge (varies by state)" Nobody can write worth a damn anymore, as that sentence muddles the meaning. I think they mean that you can get rid of your old battery (I don't need to) but still pay the $15 on the new one.
I was going with the brand name I like now, I liked that the Interstate ones are (mostly) made in the US, but then the site - going along with your thoughts that they may come from the same plant - says Wal-Mart ones are too. From a 5 y/o web page, so who knows now?:
"The actual origin of the manufacturing process for Interstate Batteries is vague. The automotive, truck, and marine batteries are made by Johnson Controls which makes 65% of the automotive, truck, and marine batteries sold in the USA. Johnson Controls also makes the batteries for Wal-Mart and AutoZone. From Louisiana to Southern California the Interstate brand batteries are made by a Johnson Controls manufacturing plant in Monterrey, Mexico. In the other states, the batteries are made by Johnson Controls in the United States."
The 3-year warranty is the same.
Oh, well, you're right, PM. OTOH, I've had good luck with the interstate ones so far but don't know about Wal-Mart Maxx's.
Thanks, both of you!
Possum Man, I'm afraid you're right, as I could have got that "Maxx" one for less (my price did include tax and the various fees that can add up to maybe $20.
Also, per Wal-Mart site: "If you need to get rid of your old battery, there is free battery recycling at your local Walmart Price shown does not include the Core Battery charge (varies by state)" Nobody can write worth a damn anymore, as that sentence muddles the meaning. I think they mean that you can get rid of your old battery (I don't need to) but still pay the $15 on the new one.
I was going with the brand name I like now, I liked that the Interstate ones are (mostly) made in the US, but then the site - going along with your thoughts that they may come from the same plant - says Wal-Mart ones are too. From a 5 y/o web page, so who knows now?:
"The actual origin of the manufacturing process for Interstate Batteries is vague. The automotive, truck, and marine batteries are made by Johnson Controls which makes 65% of the automotive, truck, and marine batteries sold in the USA. Johnson Controls also makes the batteries for Wal-Mart and AutoZone. From Louisiana to Southern California the Interstate brand batteries are made by a Johnson Controls manufacturing plant in Monterrey, Mexico. In the other states, the batteries are made by Johnson Controls in the United States."
The 3-year warranty is the same.
Oh, well, you're right, PM. OTOH, I've had good luck with the interstate ones so far but don't know about Wal-Mart Maxx's.
Thanks, both of you!
Moderator
Wednesday - January 31st 2024 2:31PM MST
PS: Thank you for all the info. and the troubleshooting stories, Adam. I thought about the connections only afterwards - sounds pretty slack - but then I still thought, better to just get a new battery now. They generally don't last so long anymore, your store of the old batter on a charger for 5-6 weeks notwithstanding.
However, after I jumped the car, I did shut it down multiple times that day. I wanted to see while it was still in the driveway, for one thing, but later I forgot to leave it running while using the truck for moving some items (very short trip). It did start those times, so, I am not sure, but doesn't that indicate that it was just the battery not being able to hold enough energy? I am positive, no pun intended, that it wouldn't have worked the next day. The new one is doing fine too with the same grounding. That is not to say I shouldn't go through that stuff.
As for my original question, wouldn't I at least have enough amperage to power the starter solenoid, if the lights came on bright (headlights and annunciators, the latter of which normally get kind of low when you're not getting much out of the battery)?
If I have any more problems, besides the wiring, I could replace the alternator/regulator - I think together on this thing. They are at least 20 years old, but then, why ruin a good thing? They used to make quality stuff.
On that last note, ask me about water heaters sometime. That's not a sales pitch, Adam, as I'm not selling you mine, the one that's still in use from 1988.
However, after I jumped the car, I did shut it down multiple times that day. I wanted to see while it was still in the driveway, for one thing, but later I forgot to leave it running while using the truck for moving some items (very short trip). It did start those times, so, I am not sure, but doesn't that indicate that it was just the battery not being able to hold enough energy? I am positive, no pun intended, that it wouldn't have worked the next day. The new one is doing fine too with the same grounding. That is not to say I shouldn't go through that stuff.
As for my original question, wouldn't I at least have enough amperage to power the starter solenoid, if the lights came on bright (headlights and annunciators, the latter of which normally get kind of low when you're not getting much out of the battery)?
If I have any more problems, besides the wiring, I could replace the alternator/regulator - I think together on this thing. They are at least 20 years old, but then, why ruin a good thing? They used to make quality stuff.
On that last note, ask me about water heaters sometime. That's not a sales pitch, Adam, as I'm not selling you mine, the one that's still in use from 1988.
Possumman
Wednesday - January 31st 2024 2:26PM MST
PS Try Walmart about $139 for most -- they work just fine and probably made in same factory---battery manufacturing is a pretty dirty industry so not a lot of folks making them
Adam Smith
Wednesday - January 31st 2024 1:42PM MST
PS: Good afternoon, Mr. Moderator!
“It was just weird how there is this hard limit - nothing at all happens below it.”
Sometimes a battery will show proper voltage, but will not have enough amperage to power a load. My guess is that your battery had enough voltage to power lower amperage loads (warning lights and headlights, etc.) but not high amperage loads like your starter. This is probably caused by sulfation of the plates in your battery.
Alternatively, you may have dirty grounds from your battery to the frame or where the starter connects to the engine block. (Or your ground cable is wearing out. Given the age of your car this is a very realistic possibility. Not long ago I had some nice new heavy duty cables made for a 1986 Ford F350 with a 460 engine. The old cables didn't look bad, and they tested fine on the meter, but the real world difference in amperage supplied to the starter was substantial as evidenced by how much faster the starter was spinning and how much easier the engine would start.)
A couple more quick anecdotes about batteries...
A couple weeks ago we got some winter weather here in the mountains. So, I checked all my lithium ion powered flashlights to make sure they were all charged up in case the power went out. In one of my two cell flashlights I found a battery that seemed to take a proper charge and had good voltage on the meter that would not power the light. After I swapped it out for another I had no problem. This particular battery, even though showing a proper voltage was shot. (Very low amperage.)
Once upon a time I helped an elderly friend fix his riding mower. For some reason it would not start. He bought a new battery and a new starter and installed them. Still wouldn't start. Battery tested good, and when wired directly to the battery on the bench the starter worked as it should. My meter showed proper ground at all points tested. I cleaned the grounding locations and the cable ends and such... Still wouldn't start. So, even though the grounds all tested fine on the meter, I made a new ground strap that I used to ground the starter case directly to the negative post on the battery. Voilà! Suddenly everything worked. (Even though the grounds/frame/engine block/etc. all tested fine, they obviously were not. A simple copper wire ground strap solved this problem.)
And, here's one more...
I once had an old lead acid car battery (like ~15 years old) that seemed to have finally met its demise. It was winter time and it just wouldn't take a charge. But in the interest of science I decided to hook it up to a battery charger that I had made out of an old laptop power supply. (This power supply was not high current, probably about 2.5 or 3 amps, but provided a constant 14.6 volts.)
I left the battery hooked up to this charger for 5 or 6 weeks. When I removed the battery from the charger it was working very well. (Apparently this constant low amperage highish voltage charge dissolved the lead sulfate crystals that had formed on the lead plates in the battery.) I went on to use this battery for about three more years until it finally crapped out.
So, anyway... That's about all I have to say about lead acid batteries. (For now.)
Later... ☮️
“It was just weird how there is this hard limit - nothing at all happens below it.”
Sometimes a battery will show proper voltage, but will not have enough amperage to power a load. My guess is that your battery had enough voltage to power lower amperage loads (warning lights and headlights, etc.) but not high amperage loads like your starter. This is probably caused by sulfation of the plates in your battery.
Alternatively, you may have dirty grounds from your battery to the frame or where the starter connects to the engine block. (Or your ground cable is wearing out. Given the age of your car this is a very realistic possibility. Not long ago I had some nice new heavy duty cables made for a 1986 Ford F350 with a 460 engine. The old cables didn't look bad, and they tested fine on the meter, but the real world difference in amperage supplied to the starter was substantial as evidenced by how much faster the starter was spinning and how much easier the engine would start.)
A couple more quick anecdotes about batteries...
A couple weeks ago we got some winter weather here in the mountains. So, I checked all my lithium ion powered flashlights to make sure they were all charged up in case the power went out. In one of my two cell flashlights I found a battery that seemed to take a proper charge and had good voltage on the meter that would not power the light. After I swapped it out for another I had no problem. This particular battery, even though showing a proper voltage was shot. (Very low amperage.)
Once upon a time I helped an elderly friend fix his riding mower. For some reason it would not start. He bought a new battery and a new starter and installed them. Still wouldn't start. Battery tested good, and when wired directly to the battery on the bench the starter worked as it should. My meter showed proper ground at all points tested. I cleaned the grounding locations and the cable ends and such... Still wouldn't start. So, even though the grounds all tested fine on the meter, I made a new ground strap that I used to ground the starter case directly to the negative post on the battery. Voilà! Suddenly everything worked. (Even though the grounds/frame/engine block/etc. all tested fine, they obviously were not. A simple copper wire ground strap solved this problem.)
And, here's one more...
I once had an old lead acid car battery (like ~15 years old) that seemed to have finally met its demise. It was winter time and it just wouldn't take a charge. But in the interest of science I decided to hook it up to a battery charger that I had made out of an old laptop power supply. (This power supply was not high current, probably about 2.5 or 3 amps, but provided a constant 14.6 volts.)
I left the battery hooked up to this charger for 5 or 6 weeks. When I removed the battery from the charger it was working very well. (Apparently this constant low amperage highish voltage charge dissolved the lead sulfate crystals that had formed on the lead plates in the battery.) I went on to use this battery for about three more years until it finally crapped out.
So, anyway... That's about all I have to say about lead acid batteries. (For now.)
Later... ☮️
And greetings, Achmed!
I agree with Possumman about Walmart batteries. I’ve had several Walmart batteries through the years. The Walmart battery in my car is ~7 years old. (I’m looking to replace it even though it is still working well, but I have yet to find an AGM battery in a proper size.) Most store bought batteries seem to be made by Johnson Controls with different stickers applied depending on the vendor. I have found that the batteries from Walmart are the same as the batteries from Autozone, but cost a bit less.
A few years ago I bought one of these Walmart batteries for Mrs. Smith’s car...
https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Platinum-AGM-Automotive-Battery-Group-Size-H8-12-Volt-900-CCA/40647529
As far as I can tell it is exactly the same battery sold by Autozone and Advance Auto...
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/diehard-platinum-agm-battery-h8-group-size-900-cca-1000-ca-160-min-reserve-capacity-for-high-electrical-demands-h8-agm/10210828-P
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-starting-and-charging/battery/p/duralast-platinum-agm-battery-bci-group-size-49-900-cca-h8-agm/319459_0_0
If I were looking for a really serious battery I suppose I could buy one of these...
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/automotive/ag-h8-rs/
Mrs. Smith's WalMart battery has given us zero trouble in the time we've had it.
Mr. Moderator asks…
“As for my original question, wouldn't I at least have enough amperage to power the starter solenoid, if the lights came on bright (headlights and annunciators, the latter of which normally get kind of low when you're not getting much out of the battery)?”
I would think so. A typical solenoid uses about 10(ish) amps. If the solenoid wasn’t clicking then perhaps your connections need cleaning or the battery was lower than you thought.(?) Or it was clicking but is so quiet that you didn’t hear it.(?)
“If I have any more problems, besides the wiring, I could replace the alternator/regulator - I think together on this thing. They are at least 20 years old, but then, why ruin a good thing? They used to make quality stuff.”
Unless your vehicle is really old, like pre-1970, then your alternator is almost certainly integrated with your alternator. But that does not necessarily mean that you can’t replace just the voltage regulator. Mrs. Smith’s car, for example, has an alternator with a replaceable voltage regulator.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/363205586137
I do agree with you that there is no need to replace a good alternator. (They are not making things better than they used to.)
Do you have a multi-meter? I ask because you can test your electrical system with it. A fully charged battery should have a minimum of 12.6v (or a little more if you’re lucky and your battery is really good) without the alternator running. With the car running, the alternator should put out at least 13.8v (assuming your battery was starting with a full 12.6v charge) to charge your battery and run all the electrical stuff.
In a more perfect world every alternator would put out 14.4v as this is (in my opinion) the best voltage for a standard 12v system like that found in your car. But anything above 13.8v is generally fine. 14.0v, 14.2v or anything like that is good. Every vehicle is a little different, but as long as your alternator is charging the battery and running all your electrical devices then all is well.
If you don’t have a multi-meter, or wish to have a more thorough test performed on your alternator you could remove it from the car and take it to a parts store that has the machine for testing alternators. (Most Autozone, Advance Auto, Napa, Pepboys, etc. have them. Especially the larger stores.)
You’ll need the corresponding part number for whatever they sell at the store... (example, autozone couldn’t test Mrs. Smith’s alternator until they looked up the Autozone part number. The machine tells them which cables they need to use, how to hook them up and what normal/acceptable readings look like. Another example, I had what appeared to be a bad alternator on the blue tractor a couple years back. The guys at autozone couldn’t test it because they had no idea what the part number was and they couldn’t look it up. So, I went home and looked up a list of interchange part numbers, printed them out and went back to the store. They started inputting part numbers from the list until one of them worked. They hooked it up as per the instructions and as it turned out the alternator was fine. The problem, in this case, was that the old exciter wire in the tractor stopped providing voltage to the alternator so I had to run +12v switched power to a relay that provided +12v from the positive battery terminal to the alternator to get the system charging again.)
One more charging system story. (And this is the only time I have ever seen this particular problem with a charging system.) Years ago, when I was just a kid and not a mechanic, I had a car that presented with a dead battery. Wouldn’t start. At first it seemed like it was the battery or the alternator as these are the most common culprits.
I charged the battery and it tested fine. I put it in the car and tested the alternator and it was putting out low(ish) voltage. So I figured that the alternator/regulator was bad and I installed a new one. The new alternator tested the same as the old one.(?) Did I get a bad alternator from the store? Hmmm… I took it back to the store and swapped it for another new alternator… Still the same low(ish) charging voltage problem…
Turns out it wasn’t the battery and it wasn’t the alternator or the voltage regulator. It was the starter. Somehow there was some sort of internal problem with the starter that was causing a fairly large parasitic draw. When parked it would kill the battery. When running the alternator would kind of keep up, but wouldn’t charge the battery. After I replaced the starter I had no more problems.
Other than draining the electrical system the starter was fine. It started the car as it should and presented with no symptoms that would lead me to believe that there was any sort of problem with it. Weird, and rare, but it is a thing.
And that's about all I have to say about 12v charging systems...
Happy Saturday! ☮️