Posted On: Saturday - April 19th 2025 11:23AM MST
In Topics: Trump Globalists China Economics Liberty/Libertarianism
I believe I've only written this in comments (will search later), but I will relate the subject of a conversation between me and my now-departed friend about China. I'm trying to pin the time down, but it just MUST have been near the end of the 1990s. We both knew that lots of manufacturing work was being outsourced to China even then. My friend did not like the whole deal, and his major point was "they will equalize the salaries between China and America." I disagreed that that was a problem. "So? What's wrong with that?"
I don't know why I said that, as even in the early '90s I was well aware of the problem with America trying to have only a service economy. I'd even helped in the Paul Tsongas campaign, and then nearly voted for Ross Perot* in '92. (No, of course not Bush, nor Clinton, but I voted for the L guy. They weren't Open Borders wackos back then...)
It's been more than a quarter century since that conversation of ours. Even a decade later I could see that he was right - I'm sure I admitted that to him. Well, in the 2 hour-long conversation that Peak Stupidity urged our readers to view, that ZeroHedge-run tariff debate between Spencer Morrison and Peter Schiff, there were some words exchanged that get back to this point about what's good for the World vs what's good for America.
I can't remember every word said, mind you, or every point made, but this was early on, and it was Peter Schiff who brought the wrong side (in any Patriot's opinion) of the issue up. The talk was about "Comparative Advantage", "Competitive Advantage" (for the difference, try to figure it out here) and other Libertarian economic theory/ideology. Peter Schiff said, and I AGREE with this, that Free Trade, on the whole is best for the people of the world. (I'd take that as "on average", and as for "Where is this Free Trade of which you speak?", don't get me started... just yet.) Well, probably so, but is that what's best for Americans, especially right now? Of course not. Shouldn't President Trump be working on behalf of Americans, not the whole world?
I don't recall whether Mr. Morrison made the point exactly that way. That's what the debate came down to, though. Peter Schiff did not come across as an American Patriot here.** Yes, the Libertarian economic theory he defended is right, assuming, of course (NOT!), that each country and each country's businesses play by the rules. No, they don't. The biggest of them all, what Trump's new tariffs (and that debate) are all about, is China. China, the country, does not play by the rules, and Chinese businesses themselves don't play by the rules.
The Chinese government may have some certain agreements with us, all of which have been MOST FAVORABLE, by American Globalist definition, for China, but, even within those bad deals for us, the agreements are evaded purposely by the State bureaucracy. People will tell you that Americans just don't try hard to export to China. They've tried. The Chinese government, in its insidious ways, makes it difficult. Were you to finally get permission and start shipping products, the Chinese will rip off the IP, reproduce the products, and end up selling them to Americans! (That'd be at a lower price too, due to the Yuan being pegged to the US $, for one reason). One tends to give up banging one's head up against a brick wall after a spell...
Secondly, Chinese businesses themselves deal dirty. I suggest again to the reader to take a look at the Paul Milner book Poorly Made in China. Peak Stupidity reviewed this work, basically a description of an experience of frustration on steroids, and commenter Adam Smith kindly linked us to this online .pdf copy. (Speaking of, errr, stealing IP, haha!)
Beyond the cheating and subterfuge behind the Cheap China-made Crap, there is the basic difference between the old American way of doing business and the Chinese way, and most of the rest of the World with it. Olde White Man America was a place where a man's*** word was his bond, and deals really could be completely confidently with a handshake. All that doesn't fly in China ... and not so much in America anymore either.
I've known about the shady Chinese business practices from personal accounts. President Trump is good at seeing scams for what they are. He is quite aware of the scamming of America and American businesses by China and Chinese businesses. That's the RealLifePolitik. You've got to take that into account before you go claiming that sticking with the Libertarian ideology on the benefits of "Free Trade" is the best thing for Trump and America to do.
To summarize this post, it's really 2 separate reasons that Patriots are right and Libertarians are wrong about the tariffs and supposed Free Trade:
1) Whatever good Free Trade does for the World, it is not good for America. We care about America, foremost, because we LIVE HERE! [/Red Dawn]
2) There is NO Free Trade going on 'round here anyway!
PS: Long ago Peak Stupidity suggested the Conservatives and Libertarians just try to get along. See What's the deal with Peak Stupidity - Libertarian or Conservative?
* Yes, I should have, but his dropping out and coming back into the race that summer made me wonder about him. I know better now that he'd probably been threatened by the Deep State.
** I've been disappointed with what I've heard from him lately. In those gold v bitcoin debates (see here - - here and here), though I agree with him on the very point of gold as money, Mr. Schiff comes off too much at times as a salesman for his monetary fund of some sort. (He's with that "Sovereign Man" guy, no American Patriot, and maybe some others.) "There's more upside to come....!" C'mon, man! That's completely in contradiction to your main point, that gold is REAL money. Got 20 oz. today, you'll have 20 oz. tomorrow - same amount of money - THAT's the point.
His Dad Irwin, OTOH, was a real Patriot, having resisted the IRS his whole life and, in fact, died in prison due to this. Peter Schiff has bugged out to Puerto Rico for some odd reason...
*** Yes, that's "a man's" written her not just due to that olde correct grammar but to explain that, plainly, a woman's word ISN'T. It's just like that. It'd have been best to have learned that young, for personal reasons alone.
Comments:
SafeNow
Saturday - April 19th 2025 7:40PM MST
PS
“shady Chinese business practices”
Yes…agreed. But I will note an example of the opposite, i.e. getting business through hard work and expertise. China created undergraduate and even masters programs in elite English-language interpreting, with a total emphasis on commerce. Getting this degree was hard work, not shady! Hundreds or more of smart, energetic graduates then proceeded to specialize in particular kinds of products, and advertised as such. The result: When a U.S. manufacturer wanted to offshore its production, there existed a procedure.. The U.S. team gets picked-up at the airport; taken to a great hotel; taken to the best restaurant; the next day, the factory tours begin. About $250 a day for the services of the super-smart, bilingual industry specialist. I have to wonder how the offshoring would have occurred, if the above did not exist.
“shady Chinese business practices”
Yes…agreed. But I will note an example of the opposite, i.e. getting business through hard work and expertise. China created undergraduate and even masters programs in elite English-language interpreting, with a total emphasis on commerce. Getting this degree was hard work, not shady! Hundreds or more of smart, energetic graduates then proceeded to specialize in particular kinds of products, and advertised as such. The result: When a U.S. manufacturer wanted to offshore its production, there existed a procedure.. The U.S. team gets picked-up at the airport; taken to a great hotel; taken to the best restaurant; the next day, the factory tours begin. About $250 a day for the services of the super-smart, bilingual industry specialist. I have to wonder how the offshoring would have occurred, if the above did not exist.
Moderator
Saturday - April 19th 2025 5:04PM MST
PS: Yeah, and I didn't know what Arugula was until there was some deal with Obama, in which he was thought to be pretty high-brow eating that stuff that is pretty much lettuce. Or is it?
So I guess all the news reports make you hungry. For me, it's watching The Sopranos that makes me hungry for Eye-talian food! You should call your dish "Tren de Arugula".
So I guess all the news reports make you hungry. For me, it's watching The Sopranos that makes me hungry for Eye-talian food! You should call your dish "Tren de Arugula".
SafeNow
Saturday - April 19th 2025 11:39AM MST
PS
O/T
I confess that whenever I read Tren de Aragua (which I just did…NY Post), I immediately think of Arugula. (a particular leafy green) More specifically, I once saw a video of a master chef demonstrating how you slice-up the Arugula. The technique is called Chiffonade. You Chiffonade the Arugula.
(The Chiffonade technique involves slicing into thin ribbons by stacking, rolling, and then slicing perpendicularly.)
O/T
I confess that whenever I read Tren de Aragua (which I just did…NY Post), I immediately think of Arugula. (a particular leafy green) More specifically, I once saw a video of a master chef demonstrating how you slice-up the Arugula. The technique is called Chiffonade. You Chiffonade the Arugula.
(The Chiffonade technique involves slicing into thin ribbons by stacking, rolling, and then slicing perpendicularly.)
Arugula? Like lettuce, but more bitter. Which is why eating it is considered just so...sophisticated you know?
Bitter can be used for flavor, e.g. hops. But eating pure hops (sounds like too many microbrews) is just masochistic.
"When a U.S. manufacturer wanted to offshore its production, there existed a procedure.. The U.S. team gets picked-up at the airport; taken to a great hotel; taken to the best restaurant; the next day, the factory tours begin."
Sounds like a continuation of the communist procedure for visitors. For everyone there was the official tour guide. You had to have that guide with you everywhere. The guide would guide you to see all their wonderful accomplishments (and guide you away from any naughty dissidents...) If you didn't have native fluency in the language, good luck finding out anything the state didn't want you to know. Even if you did, it would be difficult.
Heinlein described a visit to the USSR with his wife, who made the effort to become natively fluent in Russian in "Inside InTourist".
There's a copy here: https://www.reddit.com/r/EuropeanCulture/comments/ozpsxv/inside_intourist_robert_a_heinlein_1960/
Probably not legal, but it should be made more widely available as a public service.
The Chinese are still communist down inside, which is all about state control. You could even argue that they took the Soviet version and made it their own, while making it even more enduring.